Thanks for a touching and educational piece David. I’m embarrassed to admit that I had never really understood what the Socratic method really meant. Now I realise I have used it my entire career, first as a teacher then in training and coaching in public health.
As a 40-something Vic Law student in the early 2000s, it was the Socratic Method that confirmed for me that I never wanted to be a lawyer. It was brutal, unrelenting and humiliating. I finished the degree - my second - and it's been useful training, but law is not a kind, humane world. John must certainly have been a unicorn.
Thanks David, this is a really nice example of how a teacher at any level can have an outsized influence on us, and how individuals may respond differently to them. I had a number of great instructors during my under- and postgraduate education. One I remember clearly was an urbane visiting prof from the Southern US who ran his final year Honours Chemistry class seminar style. I'm not sure we were fully ready for that to be honest. Then in the final exam he set a question that I believe nobody even attempted and there was outrage in our cohort that he'd set something that wasn't directly in the lectures. The question was simply "Discuss Unity and Diversity in Organic Chemistry". With our heads stuffed full of the minutiae of various reactions and incricate naming conventions and the like I think we sadly failed to see the big picture. But the fact I can, nearly 40 years later, recall the question and have thought about it many times over that period means that it was something of a success.
Of course not all environments suit the Socratic style. A former colleague of mine went on to teach for a while at the US Naval Academy. I caught up with him a few months later at a conference. He told the story of how he'd tried to start a dialog during a laboratory class. As he approached a group of midshipmen engrossed in a particular experiment he asked what they thought was going on there. They snapped to attention and replied "Sir, nothing, Sir". So, yes, a certain state of mind is required for that to work.
On that note I do despair how in these days of AI/LLMs today's students will respond to seeing their teachers as anything but an answer machine.
Loved the Paper Chase. A TV show that treated the viewers as if they were intelligent. As a preschool teacher, and with my children and grandchildren, I kind of use the Socratic way - I don't give them answers to their curious questions but encourage them to talk it through till we come to answer.
So did I. And MASH was on TV around that time too. I was in my final years of school. I imagined university life being like that, but it wasn't at all. But I wasn't studying law.
I love this. You certainly remember those teachers/lecturers who took the time out for you as a student and pushed you that bit harder, something I’ve tried to do but not always successfully. I think I would have enjoyed lectures with John Thomas but only now at my age & stage in life. I didn’t have the discipline back in the 80s for that kind of class. I absolutely LOVED The Paper Chase too—thanks for the reminder!
Derek was my Contracts lecturer in my third full time year at varsity and my introduction to the Socratic method. He hailed from Harvard and had also been an American Cup crewman. At that point I was a student in decline. My Ll.B curriculum vitae goes 4,3,2,0,5. Year 3 was Derek and fortunately for me he passed every man jack of us including 2 women who later became judges. In my 4th year I enrolled to repeat two failed subjects and took off for a job in Melbourne Carlton United Breweries; confident in my ability to pass without attending lectures. That's where I ran into Derek again. Drinks at CUB were free in the staff canteen. And that's where I ran into Derek again. He had drinking issues too
Hi David thank you so much for this thoughtful and entertaining response to my question about my Uncle John. I'm so grateful you took the time to do this and to speak to others about him. Yes it was shocking and terribly terribly sad when he passed away. But this heartwarming and illuminating read pays such a great tribute to his character and to his intellectual legacy. Wonderful memories.
Also David: John's widow Ruth (herself no slacker in academia, particularly in journalism) is delighted by the attributes and is passing them on to her three sons (my interesting, lively and very talented cousins :-) )
My sister is a current law lecturer. These days it seems much harder to engage a class as lectures are hybrid and some students only come to the university for exams.
I've just recently taken an extramural course (undergrad) and we were given 3hrs 15 mins for the 3 hr exam. The lectures had been recorded up to 4 years ago, which should have provided time to improve the sound quality of some of them.
I stopped writing at least 20 mins before the upload deadline - in that time I needed to scan the pages I had written (it wasn't really possible to type it as there were lots of equations, symbols etc.....maybe on an iPad) and it had to be submitted as one document in page order, new page for each question etc etc. I figured that if I had any time after scanning each page and pasting the images into a document I might write a bit more for the last question. Nope. With 2mins to go I still needed to convert it to a pdf, find where on earth it had gone on the recently aquired laptop and upload it. Stressy. Gimme an exam with an invigilator anyday. IMO it's unreasonable to expect every student to have access to all the hardware.
Lovely tribute David, thank you. I've just had a flashback to when I first encountered the Socratic method in just about the first lecture (Tort) of my law degree at Manchester some (checks notes) 45 years ago and Professor Harry Street's unseeing glass-eyed gaze right through me as I floundered helplessly. Pretty much set the tone for the next three years...
Hah, *lightbulb*. This blue collar tradesman (retired) has just realized that the, very few, managers whom he respected highly and appreciated in his past working life were those who used that Socratic method and when approached with a problem provided questions rather than solutions. Fancy that. Rare diamonds, such people.
What a lovely start to the day.
Thanks for a touching and educational piece David. I’m embarrassed to admit that I had never really understood what the Socratic method really meant. Now I realise I have used it my entire career, first as a teacher then in training and coaching in public health.
As a 40-something Vic Law student in the early 2000s, it was the Socratic Method that confirmed for me that I never wanted to be a lawyer. It was brutal, unrelenting and humiliating. I finished the degree - my second - and it's been useful training, but law is not a kind, humane world. John must certainly have been a unicorn.
Thanks David, this is a really nice example of how a teacher at any level can have an outsized influence on us, and how individuals may respond differently to them. I had a number of great instructors during my under- and postgraduate education. One I remember clearly was an urbane visiting prof from the Southern US who ran his final year Honours Chemistry class seminar style. I'm not sure we were fully ready for that to be honest. Then in the final exam he set a question that I believe nobody even attempted and there was outrage in our cohort that he'd set something that wasn't directly in the lectures. The question was simply "Discuss Unity and Diversity in Organic Chemistry". With our heads stuffed full of the minutiae of various reactions and incricate naming conventions and the like I think we sadly failed to see the big picture. But the fact I can, nearly 40 years later, recall the question and have thought about it many times over that period means that it was something of a success.
Of course not all environments suit the Socratic style. A former colleague of mine went on to teach for a while at the US Naval Academy. I caught up with him a few months later at a conference. He told the story of how he'd tried to start a dialog during a laboratory class. As he approached a group of midshipmen engrossed in a particular experiment he asked what they thought was going on there. They snapped to attention and replied "Sir, nothing, Sir". So, yes, a certain state of mind is required for that to work.
On that note I do despair how in these days of AI/LLMs today's students will respond to seeing their teachers as anything but an answer machine.
Nowhere to hide in the Socratic environment.
Loved the Paper Chase. A TV show that treated the viewers as if they were intelligent. As a preschool teacher, and with my children and grandchildren, I kind of use the Socratic way - I don't give them answers to their curious questions but encourage them to talk it through till we come to answer.
So did I. And MASH was on TV around that time too. I was in my final years of school. I imagined university life being like that, but it wasn't at all. But I wasn't studying law.
I love this. You certainly remember those teachers/lecturers who took the time out for you as a student and pushed you that bit harder, something I’ve tried to do but not always successfully. I think I would have enjoyed lectures with John Thomas but only now at my age & stage in life. I didn’t have the discipline back in the 80s for that kind of class. I absolutely LOVED The Paper Chase too—thanks for the reminder!
Great memories. Shared with others
Derek was my Contracts lecturer in my third full time year at varsity and my introduction to the Socratic method. He hailed from Harvard and had also been an American Cup crewman. At that point I was a student in decline. My Ll.B curriculum vitae goes 4,3,2,0,5. Year 3 was Derek and fortunately for me he passed every man jack of us including 2 women who later became judges. In my 4th year I enrolled to repeat two failed subjects and took off for a job in Melbourne Carlton United Breweries; confident in my ability to pass without attending lectures. That's where I ran into Derek again. Drinks at CUB were free in the staff canteen. And that's where I ran into Derek again. He had drinking issues too
Hi David thank you so much for this thoughtful and entertaining response to my question about my Uncle John. I'm so grateful you took the time to do this and to speak to others about him. Yes it was shocking and terribly terribly sad when he passed away. But this heartwarming and illuminating read pays such a great tribute to his character and to his intellectual legacy. Wonderful memories.
Also please thank Jack so much for his memory of John's kindness and the way he cared about his students. It meant a lot to read that.
Also David: John's widow Ruth (herself no slacker in academia, particularly in journalism) is delighted by the attributes and is passing them on to her three sons (my interesting, lively and very talented cousins :-) )
I feel as if I've overheard some cool dudes talking about something I have never heard of, nor ever had it enter my head in any way.
I'm in awe!!
My sister is a current law lecturer. These days it seems much harder to engage a class as lectures are hybrid and some students only come to the university for exams.
She was entirely masterful whenever he called upon her, I recall :)
I've just recently taken an extramural course (undergrad) and we were given 3hrs 15 mins for the 3 hr exam. The lectures had been recorded up to 4 years ago, which should have provided time to improve the sound quality of some of them.
I stopped writing at least 20 mins before the upload deadline - in that time I needed to scan the pages I had written (it wasn't really possible to type it as there were lots of equations, symbols etc.....maybe on an iPad) and it had to be submitted as one document in page order, new page for each question etc etc. I figured that if I had any time after scanning each page and pasting the images into a document I might write a bit more for the last question. Nope. With 2mins to go I still needed to convert it to a pdf, find where on earth it had gone on the recently aquired laptop and upload it. Stressy. Gimme an exam with an invigilator anyday. IMO it's unreasonable to expect every student to have access to all the hardware.
What a lovely, thought-provoking read, and the following discussion is equally enjoyable. Thanks everyone!
Lovely tribute David, thank you. I've just had a flashback to when I first encountered the Socratic method in just about the first lecture (Tort) of my law degree at Manchester some (checks notes) 45 years ago and Professor Harry Street's unseeing glass-eyed gaze right through me as I floundered helplessly. Pretty much set the tone for the next three years...
Hah, *lightbulb*. This blue collar tradesman (retired) has just realized that the, very few, managers whom he respected highly and appreciated in his past working life were those who used that Socratic method and when approached with a problem provided questions rather than solutions. Fancy that. Rare diamonds, such people.
Cheers Dave, and... Best. Talking Heads. Song. Ever.